Bill & Gloria are brought up in gay discussion on radio talk show
I listen to Steve Brown Etc., a weekly radio talk show. This past week, he talked to Mel White, a former "ghost-writer" for such evangelicals as Billy Graham, Pat Robertson, and Jerry Falwell. He is also a homosexual activist.
During the course of the interview, Steve (who is a friend of Bill & Gloria Gaither) brings up a conversation he had with Gloria Gaither about how the church treats homosexuals.
If you'll listen to the Steve Brown show (click here) and go 24:30 into the program, you'll hear Mel say that Gloria is wrong and unrealistic in what she said to Steve about the church showing love to gays. You really should listen to it to also hear Mel say that Bill & Gloria are surrounded by gay people every day [in Christian/church music.]
(For what it's worth, I agree with Brown's position: it's a sin, but I'm not your mother and I'm not going to throw rocks from my glass house).
NOTE / UPDATE >> I have posted some updates on this topic under the "comments" section. CLICK HERE TO READ THE UPDATES.
Labels: news and updates
9 Comments:
There have been a lot of discussions on this post on other forums. Here are my responses to some of them.
on the Steve Brown Etc. forum, I said:
This episode is being discussed on many Gaither-related websites and forums with interesting responses all the way around. I've also enjoyed seeing people "light up" when they hear how well Steve handled the whole subject! People who had never heard Steve have told me they plan to listen to more of his stuff.
Kudos to Steve for such a diplomatic discussion!
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in response to sinners entering heaven, I said:
The beauty of the gospel and the imputed righteousness of Christ is this:
-No sinner shall enter heaven.
-Christ is sin-less.
-He died for sinners.
-Christ's righteousness has been deposited into the account of sinners who receive it.
-I have received Christ.
-When God looks at me, he sees Jesus' righteousness.
-I shall enter heaven.
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in a usenet forum, someone wrote:
Daniel, what you quoted is not Brown's position. He said the
words, "gay and lesbian Christians". There is no such thing as a gay
Christian. He also said, "I think it's hard to speak to almost any
issue without suffering from the sin of self righteousness."
OKAY then, let's not speak about any sin at all!!!! This man and his
views are very dangerous. I would not recommend anyone to listen to
him, especially a new or weak christian.
in response to that, I said:
Well, do you also believe that there is no such thing as an alcoholic
Christian or a lying Christian or an adulterous Christian? I believe,
as Brown does, that any sin is save-able and that when you become a
Christian, it doesn't mean every sin is done away with. Forgiven, yes -
but some sins may truly last a lifetime.
I will agree with you all day long that church should not waver in
drawing a line in the sand and calling sin, sin. Homosexuality is a
sin. Don't care how you cut it, it's against God's plan. No excuses.
But does that mean we are to beat them bloody into Christianity? That's
not Christian love, it's a seed of terrorism: "Believe as I believe or
I'm gonna kill you and send you to the hot place where you belong!"
Oh, and by the way - Brown simply teaches the gospel of grace with no
strings attached. Did Jesus teach any different?
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And, finally - to those who mis-use the word "REPENT:"
First off - REPENTANCE is "changing one's mind." It is not restitution; it is not fixing something or working to 'make it right.' Repentance is simply going to God with what's broken in your life. It is God's methodology to change you. (Note that it is God’s doing, not yours.)
Repentance is necessary for forgiveness (a no-brainer; you need to apologize in order for forgiveness - and sincere apologizing is admitting you were wrong - repenting).
But if repentance means to never commit that sin again, then I'm in serious trouble!
-Daniel
UPDATE 5/4/06>> The folks over on the Singing News forum have been having a long discussion on this subject, particularly related to Marsha Stevens, writer of "For Those Tears I Died." Stevens is also a gay activist. I'm not going to re-hash that situation, other than to post what appears to be an official response from Bill Gaither himself, as posted on the Singing News forum:
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Apparently, a visit by Marsha Stevens to a Gaither Homecoming concert in 2002 is being misrepresented and misused by her and others. Marsha Stevens is an outspoken lesbian singer-songwriter who operates an organization called Born Again Lesbian Music (BALM Ministries). Her story is a sad one.
In 1969, as the 16 year-old leader of what many consider to be the first contemporary Christian music group, Children of the Day, Marsha wrote “For Those Tears I Died,” which quickly became one of the most popular songs of the so-called Jesus Movement. Featured on Maranatha’s “The Everlastin’ Living Jesus Music Concert” album, her song became one of the best known Christian folk songs of the decade.
Gloria and I, along with hundreds of churches around the country have sung that song for years. Unfortunately, in more recent years Marsha publicly declared herself to be lesbian and took her music and work in a very different direction from where it started.
In December 2002, we had a Gaither Homecoming concert in Phoenix, where someone told us she was in attendance and asked if she could come backstage and say hello. Mark Lowry and I greeted Marsha and her partner and someone snapped a photograph of the four of us, and picture that Marsha has exploited on her Web site ever since. False reports of what transpired at the concert have also surfaced on various Web sites so we pulled the videotape of the concert and reviewed it. Here is exactly what happened.
Gloria and I were celebrating our 40th anniversary that night and we sang a number of songs that had been special to us over the years, including, “For Those Tears I Died.” I mentioned, from the platform, that the woman who wrote that song “is here tonight.” I then said that I love that song because someone “may have seen a grownup with a Jesus that maybe is pushing you away, that wouldn’t let you in. And you were never good enough. The only Christ I know is the Christ in that song, with His arms out very wide, saying, ‘come to the water.’ That’s the only Christ I know—come as you are.”
We then continued the concert without any further mention of Marsha or this song. Any other report of this concert is simply and sadly false. I regret that this brief exchange has apparently been used to suggest some sort of endorsement of Marsha and her current life and work. Clearly I do not endorse or support either, though I believe God can, and does still use this song to minister to people. I pray for Marsha and encourage others to do the same.
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If the above quote is truly from Bill Gaither, then that would explain the "exploitation" by Mel White also in the Steve Brown interview... a manipulated statement to show that the Gaithers endorse homosexuality. At this time and until proven otherwise, my opinion of Mel's statement is just that: manipulation.
-Daniel
Hey Daniel!
I just linked on to your blog, and read a quote from you that really got my attention.
I really believe that you are sincere, and I agree with most of your comments regarding the love and grace of God.
You said, "And, finally - to those who mis-use the word "REPENT:"
First off - REPENTANCE is "changing one's mind." It is not restitution; it is not fixing something or working to 'make it right.' Repentance is simply going to God with what's broken in your life. It is God's methodology to change you. (Note that it is God’s doing, not yours.)"
Actually, "repent" does not mean to change one's mind". It is literally defined as "Turn away from". Our mind is not the main issue. It is a changing of the soul. Paul said, "What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? God forbid".
Does that mean that we will never sin. Absolutely not. However, I do believe that if we are truly repentant, we will not continue in that same sin. That is what makes Him God, the fact that He sets us free INDEED.
Pastor David Smith
trentoncg@aol.com
Daniel..
Why would Jesus tell the woman caught in the very act of adultery to "Go and sin no more" if it were not possible for her to do that. God requires a sinless life and the bible says where sin abounds, grace did much more abound. Sure, the bible tells us that we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ our Lord, if we do sin, but we must repent and have our sin under the blood. There is not such thing as a sinning christian. If you are sinning, you ain't saved and if you are saved you ain't sinning as one preacher put it. There are NO saved alcoholics, homosexuals, or liars. To say that some sins last a lifetime dilutes the saving power of the blood that Jesus Christ shed on Calvary. You are saying that he did not have the power to keep you from sin. Even thought the bible specifically says "Him that can keep you from falling. You do not have to sin everyday, and if you have sins in your life that you are currently committing they will keep you from entering heaven. Plain and simple.
I have received some criticism, mainly on theology (surprise, surprise). Here’s my response to some points brought up by David and Jeremy:
David,
I appreciate your comment! As I understand it (and I can be wrong here), repentance comes from the greek word "metanoia." Here's how I've heard it put:
"Repentance (Metanoia, changing your mind or attitude or heart) is not changing yourself. Repentance is agreeing with God who you are, who God is, what you've done, and what needs to change". By that definition, you've repented, even if change isn't evident yet.
I'm no Bible scholar, but I trust the sources that have taught me the above principle. Do you agree with it? I'm interested in your take.
Daniel Britt
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Jeremy,
First, I don’t believe I ever said it was impossible to change. With Christ, all things are possible. But, I do believe it’s incorrect to say we automatically become perfect & sinless beings once we’re saved. That’s just simply not the case.
Paul obviously dealt with sin even though his mind and heart had changed on the besetting sin with which he struggled. “The sin I don’t want to do, that’s what I do” is not only written in the present tense but also reveals that born-again Christians still struggle win sin.
I will say that although we sin after salvation, because of the imputed righteousness of Christ, we’re seen as perfect by God. That doesn’t mean God is tricked into seeing us as perfect when we’re really not, but, by the divine sacrifice of Jesus, his perfection has been given to you and me when we accept it.
Second, I have some profound disagreements with your statement that one cannot be a “sinning Christian.” At first thought, your statement sounds admirable, but as you clarified it to say that one cannot sin and be saved (or once you’re saved you stop sinning), I believe that thought is spurious. Furthermore, if what you say is true, I’m in serious trouble.
I’m probably not going to change your mind about any of this, but I’m not going to say that I have all the answers either. I really don’t. I’ve just done some thinking and have heard some really good teaching on the subject and am convinced it is the truth and the reality of life.
Daniel Britt
Daniel,
I certainly don't have all the answers either, and I appreciate you responding to me. I am only trying to make the point that I do not believe that we can continue committing a sin without repenting for it and it still be covered under the blood. I was in no way trying to imply that once we are saved, we will live a perfect, sinless life. I am only saying if we do sin, we must repent of the sin and turn from it. I hope Pastor Smith responds to your question about the definition of repentance, but if he does not I will give you a couple of references you can look at that give very good definitions of the word. Nave's Topical Bible, and
Baker's Evangelical Dictionary of Biblical Theology both give the definition of not only a changing of mind, but also a turning around from sin, and a turning towards God. The quote that really disturbed me and made me respond was when you gave the impression that a homosexual could be a christian while still being a homosexual. If I misunderstood this, then I apologize, but your response of some sins last a lifetime seemed to me to imply that a homosexual that got saved could remain in that condition. I appreciate you saying that Homosexuality is a sin and churches should preach against it, but I hope you also believe you can't go to heaven as a homosexual. God called it an abomination in his Word, and I certainly believe that God will not allow any abmoniable sin into heaven.
Thank you for your time,
Jeremy Miles
I must say I am going with Mel on this one. I work for a Christian school, and I must say that homosexuality is a major topic. Teachers out of Bob Jones (via satellite) pound the topic day after day. Really, what makes this sin so much more important than any other? Homophobia.
I must agree with the other anonymous commentor here...What makes homosexuality worse or different than other things going on in the world? Murder, rape, sexual predators, incest, infidelity, stealing....Jesus was on the cross for our sins true, but I get so tired of having homosexuality nailed to death on a cross of sorts and used as a scapegoat for everything else wrong in the world. Live and Let Live, We are also not to Judge.
Bless the Lord for Bill & Gloria Somebody is Listening to Him!
To all of you Holier than Holies people that think you are so sure set in your Salvation. Pick up the Word of God and read it for your-selves. Read the scripture in its context and quit trying to beat the bible over everyone’s head.
His word says that we all Sin daily and fall short of the Glory of God. It also says that Sin is Sin none greater none smaller than the other.
Many of us that you have condemned to HELL HAVE MORE CHRISTIAN INTELLECT in our little finger than you have in your bodies. Some of us are where we are; because of the Churches and their Pastors and People like you.
Read the Newspapers, there are Children being raped and sodimized in every denomination. It is not just the Catholic Church. It often happens right in the Church house by Pastors, Sunday School Teachers as well as Members of the Congregation.
Let’s not be too quick to judge here. Nothing have I have witnessed here on these pages says “Jesus” to me. It says hatred, bitterness and causes envy and strife. You need to be a witness not a stumbling block that is what God Commissioned... Why on earth would I or anyone else; want to trade a world of hurt, for a Church full of the same. Get yourself right and know that just as I will stand before God, so shall you.
When you say Lord but this is what I have done; in you're name and he answers yes... but I never knew you! Lovest thou thee more than these my Child; What will your answer be?
They are Not just “Homosexuals” they are living breathing people; Souls and if you have any kind of calling on your life and God has commissioned you to his service... It is time to stop leading his sheep to slaughter! There are millions of people that are going out of this world lost and dying because of the bigotry and hatred that I read on these pages. God commissioned you to reach out and show them the way to Him… No where in the Word can I find that he Commissioned you to Change anyone; that is what he does! You are not capable of saving one soul.
God have Mercy on you for you really do not know what you do! Like Pilot How many Blood Stains are on your hands?
Read Matthew Chapters 23 & 24 and tell me who is more hated for his namesake? The "Christian" or the GLBT people who stand up and for their right to believe and Worship him freely. His Word says that false profits will rise up; I believe He addresses them as;
Scribes and Pharisees and Hypocrites and says; For ye are like unto whiten sepulchers which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead bones and of all uncleanness. Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within are full of hypocrisy and iniquity. Prayer is what Changes the world. Good old fashioned fasting (you know doing with out a meal or two), digging into the word; and most of all falling on your face before him seeking wisdom and understanding OF HIS WORD. Try it and get back to me. I guarantee I won't see pages filled with hatred and deceits like they are now!
Trust me I will be doing some major fasting and praying for you all!!!
Homosexual Sinner Saved By Grace! Go ahead and walk through his Blood for I know it covers me!
Just so you know…I am a One God Apostolic Tongue Talking Holy Roller Born Again Believer in the Liberating Power of Jesus Name. I have been Washed in His Blood Sanctified by the Spirit Brother I believe in Holiness and suggest that you do the same. I was set Free at a Pentecostal Alter on my Knees and you’ll pardon me if I’m not ashamed. To be a One God Apostolic Tongue Talking Holy Roller Born Again Believer in the Liberating Power of Jesus Name. Oh and by the way… Still a Homosexual!
In Christ The Author and Finisher Of My Faith
L.C. Hunt
Eastpointe, MI
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